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Originally posted by misterX
well lets see. the way you spoke about theformation of themoon it indicated you DID know how it formed. and lets see.....what else o yes, you claim god doesnt excist, yet you then go on to talk about gods knowledge. and no you haven't explained how by someone knowing what someone isgoingto do is taking away there free will to do what ever they chose to do. "if god told us wha twill happen"? wtf do you mean? why all the if's? the thing is god hasn't told us whats going to happen. and if he did HOW do you know we can't change it? you talk in absolutes about a subject where there can be no absolutes. you're trying to make the rules or laws up as you go along! You say that " If you COULD change it, then that would mean that a) God's knowledge is not perfect. He didn't really know what your fate was to begin with, or b) he lied to you when he told you what your future held. " you see, he didn't tell me what my future held so again your argyment is redundant. i'm sure you're used to that aren't you? all you need to do is to stop talking about hypothetical's as if they were fact. you contradict yourself so many time it has stopped being funny
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Okay, this goes against my better judgement ... but here's my reply. When talking about God, you really can't help but to use "ifs" and hypotheticals. I was working with the idea of god that was given to me by the Christians here ... that he is omniscient. I know that omniscient means "all-knowing." Therefore, if God knows all, then he must know your future. I state that as a simple course of logic. If "this," then "that." As to how I KNOW you couldn't change your future if God knows what it is ... well ... because God knows your future. Your future is laid out for you in his mind, and you have to play it out according to what is in his head (I hate talking about God personified, but I do it for the sake of simplicity). The reason why I say you HAVE to play it out according to what is in his head is because if you did something that god didn't know you would do, then god would not be all-knowing. Hence, this is why I say you cannot have free will if there is an omniscient being out there. Now, I am going to use a hypothetical situation again. The reason for this is because it demonstrates how free will is an illusion when there enters an omniscient being. You go through life, thinking you have free will because you cannot see the future. You can make small predictions ... like, if I don't pay the electric bill, they will cut off my power. But you don't truly know the consequences of all of your actions, or what situations you will face in the future and the choices you will make when you face them. And you think that you have the freedom to make any choice you wish. That is how you live your life now.
Enter: Someone who knows everything you will do in the future, and all of the choices you will make. This guy just starts hanging around your apartment, smiling whenever you do something. You finally ask him: "Why are you smiling?" And he says, "I knew you were going to do that." At first you wouldn't believe him. Surely, you're not THAT predictable. So, you ask him for proof. You tell him to write down what you will say in the next five minutes and put it in his pocket. He does so, then you remain silent for four minutes and 58 seconds. At the last second you say "Strawberry." Sure enough, he pulls out a piece of paper that says: "Strawberry." You might be amused and a little creeped out ... but would dismiss it as a parlor trick. He continues with his annoying "I knew you would do that" as the days go by and it really starts to bug you. Finally, you ask him for real proof. No little party trick. He is to go home for two hours and write down everything you will do in his absence. He grins and says "I'll write it down before I leave and leave it in this envelope for you to read when the two hours is up." And you say, "What if I read it BEFORE the two hours is up?" And he responds "You won't." He writes down what you will do for the next two hours and leaves the envelope on the counter before heading out the door. Two hours pass, and you open the envelope. Sure enough, everything you did was detailed exactly on those sheets of paper. You run to his house, and ask him to write down how the rest of your life will go. He says: "You don't really want me to do that. It would feel as if you weren't making any real choices anymore." But you insist, and he does so. You read the book, and then ... suddenly you know everything you are going to do. And your life from then on feels as if you are a slave to the life written down for you in the book. You can't break away from it, you can't change it, you just follow the story. If anything, not just God, but anything knows your future (and I say "know" in the true sense. As in, they know it. They are not wrong), then you do not have free will. Right now, you only think you do because YOU not going gives you the illusion of free will. You are destined to play out your life as it is written in that book, whether you read it or not.
Now, you say the difference here is that God didn't tell you what your future held. This is true, which is why the illusion of free will is still with you. Right now, you THINK you have free will ... but you really don't (if, as you say, an omniscient god exists). And you would KNOW you don't if god told you. The only thing that happens if god tells you your life is you go from thinking you have free will, to feeling like a slave to your life's story. Your life doesn't change. Your future doesn't change. Any of the choices that you make or would have made do not change. The illusion of free will disappears.
That's about as simple as I can get it. Does anybody follow what I'm saying here?