what do u think god or satan looks like

[misterX]

Originally posted by Stingy Jack
Okay, this goes against my better judgement ... but here's my reply. When talking about God, you really can't help but to use "ifs" and hypotheticals. I was working with the idea of god that was given to me by the Christians here ... that he is omniscient. I know that omniscient means "all-knowing." Therefore, if God knows all, then he must know your future. I state that as a simple course of logic. If "this," then "that." As to how I KNOW you couldn't change your future if God knows what it is ... well ... because God knows your future. Your future is laid out for you in his mind, and you have to play it out according to what is in his head (I hate talking about God personified, but I do it for the sake of simplicity). The reason why I say you HAVE to play it out according to what is in his head is because if you did something that god didn't know you would do, then god would not be all-knowing. Hence, this is why I say you cannot have free will if there is an omniscient being out there. Now, I am going to use a hypothetical situation again. The reason for this is because it demonstrates how free will is an illusion when there enters an omniscient being. You go through life, thinking you have free will because you cannot see the future. You can make small predictions ... like, if I don't pay the electric bill, they will cut off my power. But you don't truly know the consequences of all of your actions, or what situations you will face in the future and the choices you will make when you face them. And you think that you have the freedom to make any choice you wish. That is how you live your life now.

Enter: Someone who knows everything you will do in the future, and all of the choices you will make. This guy just starts hanging around your apartment, smiling whenever you do something. You finally ask him: "Why are you smiling?" And he says, "I knew you were going to do that." At first you wouldn't believe him. Surely, you're not THAT predictable. So, you ask him for proof. You tell him to write down what you will say in the next five minutes and put it in his pocket. He does so, then you remain silent for four minutes and 58 seconds. At the last second you say "Strawberry." Sure enough, he pulls out a piece of paper that says: "Strawberry." You might be amused and a little creeped out ... but would dismiss it as a parlor trick. He continues with his annoying "I knew you would do that" as the days go by and it really starts to bug you. Finally, you ask him for real proof. No little party trick. He is to go home for two hours and write down everything you will do in his absence. He grins and says "I'll write it down before I leave and leave it in this envelope for you to read when the two hours is up." And you say, "What if I read it BEFORE the two hours is up?" And he responds "You won't." He writes down what you will do for the next two hours and leaves the envelope on the counter before heading out the door. Two hours pass, and you open the envelope. Sure enough, everything you did was detailed exactly on those sheets of paper. You run to his house, and ask him to write down how the rest of your life will go. He says: "You don't really want me to do that. It would feel as if you weren't making any real choices anymore." But you insist, and he does so. You read the book, and then ... suddenly you know everything you are going to do. And your life from then on feels as if you are a slave to the life written down for you in the book. You can't break away from it, you can't change it, you just follow the story. If anything, not just God, but anything knows your future (and I say "know" in the true sense. As in, they know it. They are not wrong), then you do not have free will. Right now, you only think you do because YOU not going gives you the illusion of free will. You are destined to play out your life as it is written in that book, whether you read it or not.

Now, you say the difference here is that God didn't tell you what your future held. This is true, which is why the illusion of free will is still with you. Right now, you THINK you have free will ... but you really don't (if, as you say, an omniscient god exists). And you would KNOW you don't if god told you. The only thing that happens if god tells you your life is you go from thinking you have free will, to feeling like a slave to your life's story. Your life doesn't change. Your future doesn't change. Any of the choices that you make or would have made do not change. The illusion of free will disappears.

That's about as simple as I can get it. Does anybody follow what I'm saying here?

ok well, l know what you are trying to say. but just answer this. did the man make you do what was written in the letter? or did he just know what you was going to do? And where he told you what was going happen for the during the rest of your life, did he make it that way? or did he know the chocies you was going to make? but whats to say if god was to come down and say. On saturday you will cross the street at 12 pm and you will be hit by a car and killed. how do you know that i wouldn't be able to change that? hmmmm? i still have a choice to cross the road at that time, or chose not to. perhaps! But since goddoesn't come down and tell us what the furtue holds for us then what i just said is redundant. isn't?just because someone knowswha tis gonna happen to someone doesn't mean he made it happen.

[Stingy Jack]

Originally posted by misterX
ok well, l know what you are trying to say. but just answer this. did the man make you do what was written in the letter? or did he just know what you was going to do? And where he told you what was going happen for the during the rest of your life, did he make it that way? or did he know the chocies you was going to make? but whats to say if god was to come down and say. On saturday you will cross the street at 12 pm and you will be hit by a car and killed. how do you know that i wouldn't be able to change that? hmmmm? i still have a choice to cross the road at that time, or chose not to. perhaps! But since goddoesn't come down and tell us what the furtue holds for us then what i just said is redundant. isn't?just because someone knowswha tis gonna happen to someone doesn't mean he made it happen.

Well, assuming that god came down and said that to you ... I would say that you have no choice as to whether or not you could cross the road. Unless the nature of god is something other than what I am working from. As I said before, I am working from two assumptions: 1) God's knowledge is truth. It is not wrong. 2) God never lies.

If we agree that these two things are true (for the sake of this arguement), then I do not see how you can avoid getting hit by the car. If you did avoid it, then either assumption 1 or 2 would be false. Either god didn't know your future with divine certainty, or he lied to you when he told you what would happen to you.

[Egekrusher]

Originally posted by misterX
ok well, l know what you are trying to say. but just answer this. did the man make you do what was written in the letter? or did he just know what you was going to do? And where he told you what was going happen for the during the rest of your life, did he make it that way? or did he know the chocies you was going to make? but whats to say if god was to come down and say. On saturday you will cross the street at 12 pm and you will be hit by a car and killed. how do you know that i wouldn't be able to change that? hmmmm? i still have a choice to cross the road at that time, or chose not to. perhaps! But since goddoesn't come down and tell us what the furtue holds for us then what i just said is redundant. isn't?just because someone knowswha tis gonna happen to someone doesn't mean he made it happen.

The thing is, it doesn't matter whether he just knows or if he is making you do those things. It is the same thing. If he knows what you are going to do, does that not also mean that you cannot change it, therefore he is, in a way, making you do it?

[Stingy Jack]

My wife just woke up and needs the phone, so I have to go. I will be back later, though.

[misterX]

Originally posted by Stingy Jack


I never called you names. I said you were ignorant. This is a fact. Just as I and everyone else in the world are ignorant. You're just one of those people who refuse to believe it. And I didn't say you were stupid. I said you are making yourself sound stupid. There is a difference. It's not like I said: "You stupid Christian", like you did to me in your last reply. I also said you were arrogant. This, too, is a fact.

Originally posted by Stingy Jack
Okay ... This sentence all by itself is my cue to stop debating with you. Anyone who has any education worth its salt never says that they know it all. Socrates said that the only reason the oracle stated he was the wisest man was because he knew that he knew nothing ... whereas everyone else thought they knew everything. All this does is show me that you are too ignorant to even realize that you are ignorant (just like we ALL are ignorant, to a certain extent.) You've already demonstrated that you're the type of guy who will be shown evidence that contradicts what he currently believed, and is too arrogant to change his belief in light of the evidence (I am referring to the "Moon" reference I posted.) You merely dismissed the evidence as "wrong", to keep from feeling/sounding stupid. When in actuality, by doing this, you made yourself look more stupid

mmmm that sure sounds like you're calling someone stupid, don't you think?the bad thing about about posting is that it's slower than chat. the good thing is you can catch people out

[misterX]

Originally posted by Stingy Jack
The quote by Socrates ... you don't think it's true? You don't think that people, in general, are ignorant to a certain extent? Do you even KNOW what ignorant means? Ignorant simply means "lacking knowledge." It is OBVIOUS that people are ignorant. Socrates merely states that he is wise because he REALIZES he is ignorant, as opposed to everyone he spoke with who thought they were not. It is TRUE. It's happening right now. I realize that I am ignorant ... about MANY things. YOU, on the other hand, stated that you know it all. I would test you on this by asking you questions, but you would just run to the internet and look up the answers. But, we both know that you CAN'T know it all. If you did, you would be pretty fucking famous.
There are things you DO NOT KNOW, hence you are IGNORANT ... just like everybody else. Capice?


As far as the moon thing goes, you know .... I gave you the theory from an ASTRONOMY text written by ASTRONOMERS. And still you think it is bullshit. The Earth would not have been destroyed because it was in it's magma state. A liquid state. Getting hit, or receiving "a glancing blow" as the source stated, would not destroy it. And as far as the moon escaping the Earth's pull ... they tested this theory with computers ... and if you go back and read the source, you will see where I mention computer simulations (Fig. 8.27). I would post the images from the simulation, but my scanner is missing it's cable. Anyway, the moon is held in place not just by the gravitational pull of the Earth, but by that of every other nearby object in the solar system. Particularly the sun. The piece, according to the pictures, begins more like a spray as it is ripped from the side of the Earth. This spray floats off, and forms into a small sphere itself. I will type the caption for Figure 8.27: "This sequence shows a simulated collision between the Earth and an object the size of Mars. The sequence proceeds top to bottom, and zooms out dramatically. The arrow in the final frame shows the newly formed moon." DID it happen this way? I don't know. It seems reasonable, and I trust that the scientists know what they're doing.

Then you say: "Don't you think that animals as intelligent as elephants or dolphins don't know that they will die? And not by accident or some predator?" No, I don't think they do know. I mean, dolphins sure do spend a lot of time tangling themselves up in fishermen's nets. But really ... you tell me to think for myself. Well, I could sit around and make up what I know about elephants and dolphins ... but I would rather someone teach me. That way, I won't be wrong.

I don't KNOW that god doesn't exist ... just like I don't KNOW that in some other dimension lives the giant, flubbering shit-hill of Aldretch. I just don't believe they do.

The Constantine thing ... that wasn't even my argument. I had nothing to do with any of that. I wasn't even online at the time! Why should I give that point to you when I never argued with you about it in the first place? You say you descredited me with your Constantine thing ... What the hell? Are you confused?

I never stated any theories, myths, or assumptions as fact. If you are referring to the god's "omniscience" thing, go back to my previous thread. I was working from what YOU claimed to be fact: "God is omniscient". Even though I believe that is not true, I worked from that point to show that IF that was true, THEN you cannot have free will. I said IF it was true. Not that it WAS true.

I never called you names. I said you were ignorant. This is a fact. Just as I and everyone else in the world are ignorant. You're just one of those people who refuse to believe it. And I didn't say you were stupid. I said you are making yourself sound stupid. There is a difference. It's not like I said: "You stupid Christian", like you did to me in your last reply. I also said you were arrogant. This, too, is a fact. You say I insulted you as a last resort? What? I have made valid points this whole time which you have yet to refute. I can't help it that you are unable to comprehend my argument about no free will with an omniscient being. I tried and tried to make it as simple as possible. I am not ON my last resort. I am not even past my FIRST resort, since you have yet to refute it or challenge it adequately.

Then you wonder why I don't go out and experiment all this stuff myself and resort to books for my knowledge. Did I get this right? Why do I use books to get my knowledge?





Do I really have to answer this?

yes, they tested it with computers. and where do computers get their infomation from? last i heard they didnt have free thikning or rational thinking computers. a computer can only work on what a programer tells it too.
well you don't think a animal knows it can will die? well then why does a wilderbeast run from the lion? even a calf that isa few hours old will either hide or failingthat run from a predator. why? would it if it had no concept of death?

[misterX]

Originally posted by Stingy Jack
Thank you! And by the way (this is for misterX), the "sheep" metaphor is for Christians, as stated in the Bible. "The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want".

well i never said that the term "sheep" doesn't apply to christians. but it also applies to atheist as well but even more so

[misterX]

o and btw the way there are five "theories" (myths) going around about how the moon was formed
1.The Fission Theory
2.The Capture Theory
3.The Condensation Theory
4.The Colliding Planetesimals Theory
5.The Ejected Ring Theory:
which is your "theory?

o an btwx2 i didn't need to go to the net for these answers
(which is again you calling me stupid which you claim to never have done)
i asked my brother who is a student and is very interested in these "myths" ( not his words mine)

[misterX]

Originally posted by Egekrusher
The thing is, it doesn't matter whether he just knows or if he is making you do those things. It is the same thing. If he knows what you are going to do, does that not also mean that you cannot change it, therefore he is, in a way, making you do it?

what do you mean it doesn't matter if he knows or is making you do it? if he just knows then he isn't making you do it, therefore you have freewill. if he is making you do it, then you have no free will. which we do. and no it doesn't mean i cannot change it. and like i said if someknows you're going to do something. that doesn't mean he is MAKING you do it. gesshhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Egekrusher]

You know what, I'm done with this. You can't argue with a brick wall.