Things I Learned Watching Classic TV And Films...

[Ferox13]

First off sorry for hijacking this thread :-) And you seem cool and all this is just internet banter. Also take into account that I have been a TMA practioner/teacher before I started MMA.

So I'll just address your comments:

Originally Posted by SteyrAUG

The bad is it is still a sport with the confines of rules and regulations which don't translate directly to real fighting. Otherwise everytime somebody had a match somebody would go to the ER with life threatening injuries.

True it is sport but you do realise that it had very few rules - In the USA before the unified rules that only started slightly over 10 years ago in the USA things are very different.

In most old school MMA fights the only rules were no Eye Gouges/Fish hooks or throat strikes. That bars very little tools that could change the out come of a fight.

Under these rule sets very few striking stlye TMA artists did well at all. In UFC, a lot were beaten by a skinny BJJ stylist.

Originally Posted by SteyrAUG

Basically it is the same difference between karate and boxing. The karate guy has a far more lethal arsenal of techniques but usually can't come close to the physical conditioning of a boxer. The boxer is in superior condition and can take and deliver very real hits, but has a very limited arsenal of weapons and no real finishing techniques.

Karate is a board term but I really think most styles of KArate have an unrealistic appraoch to combat (the exception being Kyokushin and its spin offs). If you do not train full contact with a full unresisting opponant then you have no concept of fighting.

Its strange that you seem to think that conditioning is the boxers main attribute when it is just a by product of their training methods. For the most part thier advantage over the average Karateka would be their footwork, combinations and experience to work through head/body trauma. I totally agree with you saying their style is limited and I think a leg kick would put any Boxer off their game plan.

Originally Posted by SteyrAUG

The concept is also hardly new.

I totally agree. JKD concepts was basically MMA but what Bruce Lee was writing about didn't bring about what we now call MMA.

I whole attitude to Martial Arts changed when i started full contact and it wa a real wake up call for me. I'm not trying to dismiss you art and the art is only as good as the ppl you train with. I have to admit I never heard of Kajukenbo until I saw it on Fight Quest and I'm not going to make judgement on a silly program like that..

I had a look for Kajukenbo sparring online and couldn't find anything that didn't look like points fights..can u show me some links..

[SteyrAUG]

Originally Posted by Ferox13

True it is sport but you do realise that it had very few rules - In the USA before the unified rules that only started slightly over 10 years ago in the USA things are very different.

In most old school MMA fights the only rules were no Eye Gouges/Fish hooks or throat strikes. That bars very little tools that could change the out come of a fight.

Under these rule sets very few striking stlye TMA artists did well at all. In UFC, a lot were beaten by a skinny BJJ stylist.

In a real fight I am going to do things like attack the eyes, destroy the knees or damage the windpipe at the first opportunity. I'm going to seek to destroy the weak parts of my opponents body with my strongest weapon.

These things simply don't happen in sports regardless of how close to reality they attempt to train. You simply can't do it for obvious reasons and you need rules to keep people from being crippled or killed.

Now do NOT misunderstand me. Guys who do UFC, K1 and things like that are doing really serious training and it probably isn't too hard for most of them to switch gears if they find themselves in a real world fight. Certainly they are probably better prepared than those who do "non contact" or "tag you are it" point fighting. The only point I'm stressing is you still have to train for "fights vs. sports" regardless of how advanced your martial sport has become.

Originally Posted by Ferox13

Karate is a board term but I really think most styles of KArate have an unrealistic appraoch to combat (the exception being Kyokushin and its spin offs). If you do not train full contact with a full unresisting opponant then you have no concept of fighting.

Absolutely. I would take it a step further and say actual karate is now extremely rare. And it is nearly impossible to find it in any commercial dojo. This is because real martial arts are not about telling a student how "awesome" they are. Real martial arts are basics refined to advanced levels. The training is difficult, monotonous and repetitive and few people are willing to pay money for that experience much less devote the time and energy required to produce results.

This is why the usual karate that is encountered is motivational day care with some cool spinning kicks for good measure. Very few people even understand the point or purpose of basic simple things like kata and as often as not have an incorrect understanding of the applications within a given kata. They might as well be doing Jazzercise for all the benefit they are actually getting.

Originally Posted by Ferox13

Its strange that you seem to think that conditioning is the boxers main attribute when it is just a by product of their training methods. For the most part thier advantage over the average Karateka would be their footwork, combinations and experience to work through head/body trauma. I totally agree with you saying their style is limited and I think a leg kick would put any Boxer off their game plan.

By "conditioning" I mostly mean the ability to get hit and keep fighting and the ability to actually hit somebody with something besides a "karate tag." I know people who actually believe they are black belt who have never been hit "for real" and don't know what it is to actually damage or injure people. But these are the things a boxer is typically familiar with and as a result they have a tremendous advantage, this is also the same advantage MMA stylists who train realistically have.

Originally Posted by Ferox13

I totally agree. JKD concepts was basically MMA but what Bruce Lee was writing about didn't bring about what we now call MMA.

I whole attitude to Martial Arts changed when i started full contact and it wa a real wake up call for me. I'm not trying to dismiss you art and the art is only as good as the ppl you train with. I have to admit I never heard of Kajukenbo until I saw it on Fight Quest and I'm not going to make judgement on a silly program like that..

I had a look for Kajukenbo sparring online and couldn't find anything that didn't look like points fights..can u show me some links..

Finding guys who still do Kajukenbo correctly can be sorta like finding guys who do Karate correctly. One thing they have in common along with other serious minded martial arts is they don't feel the need to put themselves on youtube.

The only point where I think you are actually in error is your belief that MMA is somehow new, or revolutionary. Training methods always change, mindset is hardly ever new. If you think you are as "reality based" as the people who used to have opportunity to kill each other in the 19th century you are kidding yourself just a bit.

I'm also gonna follow up with a topic I did on another forum to further clarify a few things. I suspect you will find us more on the same page than not.

[SteyrAUG]

Practical Combat Conditioning...Lessons Learned

I have cross trained with both asian style martial artists and american boxers. I can sum them up as such... 1. Martial artists - Most lethal techniques combined with substandard conditioning and lack of practical experience. 2. Boxers - Superb conditioning, real time experience but hindered by confines of sport. I love to cross train the two. I enjoy the expression on a black belts face when he gets knocked on his ass for the first time. I also enjoy the look of horror when a boxer remains standing after 3 really good hits. I also enjoy a boxers frustration when a talented martial artist takes him outside his realm of experience. I love watching boxers have their legs attacked. I love to see them locked, chocked and pinned out. Because, ultimately the above helps both parties.

Martial artists are incredibly skilled with a dangerous arsenal of technique. But rarely do they train in a practical way. Seldom are they as conditioned as a boxer. They usually cannot take real hits and stay in the fight. They often have never really hit anybody before. This is because most martial arts are studied in a non contact academic manner. Kinda like learning to swim but never getting in the water. Boxers are in shape. But they have a woefully inadequate arsenal. Their defense is based on the presumption of 10-14oz. gloves for additional coverage, they don't block. They have a mere handful of strikes that become predictable regardless of the combination used. And they have no finishing techniques. If they cannot land a knockout, they cannot win. So if you are a martial artist, train like a boxer. If you are a boxer, fight like a martial artist.

Another item of note. Boxers condition their entire bodies EXCEPT for their hands. Martial artists coincidentally often condition ONLY their hands. Funny huh... Result is boxers who get into real fights almost always break their hands. Without wraps and gloves to protect them boxers generate far more power and force than their hands can sustain. Martial artists on the other hand, generally generate much less power but manage a greater capacity for destruction of the target. And here is the secret...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makiwara

It's called a "makiwara" and is designed to build hard hands for striking without sustaining injury.



They are simply made and incredibly effective. Most will skip the "straw makiwara" route for simpler designs. I use (2) 2x4s one 6ft. and one 3 ft. I screw them together to support each other but let the top unsupported 3 ft. section flex. I bury them 1 1/2 feet below ground ending up with a 4 1/2 ft. tall target. For the striking area I use a 1" rubber pad inside a large towel folded and wrapped around the top of the post. This gives me the rubber target on the striking face and several layers of thick towel. I then bind the towel in place by cords at the top and bottom of the padded area. You can protect it from rain by placing a bucket over it.

When struck correctly you flex the 2x4 with each strike as you attempt to penetrate the target with driving force. After several reps it feels as if you are striking bare wood. Use extreme caution at first as the wrist and knuckles will be vulnerable and prone to injury. This is a gradual process of hardening the hands. The idea is moderate continuous reps not a few full power strikes.

I do 500 strikes a day and have done so almost uninterrupted for the last 10 years. Though my reps used to be only 200 (100 each hand). Again be very careful. Soreness is normal, blood splatter is not. 50 moderate strikes is more beneficial than 10 massive hits.

Beginners will probably want to use a single 2x4 for the striking post. This gives reasonable flex with good resistance. I have used 3x4 fence posts but found them unable to be flexed. The result is the energy is returned to the body causing frequent injury. I only use 3x4s for conditioning the feet as kicks are quickly withdrawn from the target surface. 3x4s also do not adsorb as much use and eventually snap at the base. 2x4s and double 2x4s will also eventually break but are easily replaced for a few dollars.