#40981  
Old 05-16-2018, 07:33 PM
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Saw this also, Sculpt and while it was worth a look, wondering WHAT those people (who we never see) were smoking to form;late those ideas, especially where Jack meets Mr Ullman
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Originally Posted by LuvablePsycho View Post
I think some of those theories were kind of silly. Stanley Kubrick himself once laughed at all the conspiracy theorist in an interview because they were claiming that his movie was about the genocide of the Native Americans which he said wasn't true (and if you pay attention to this documentary you'll notice it really doesn't have anything to do with the people who made this movie).
No doubt... some of the theories are on shaky ground... and some make a lot of sense.

But the real joy of the film is simply displaying so many oddities you may have missed. For instance, when the kid drives the bigwheel around the halls, never going into an elevator or stairwell, and yet it changes levels. And objects in the rooms, things that move or disappear. I missed so many things... things that affected my subconscious impression of a scene, but not my conscious understanding. Room 237 will certainly sharpen what you can observe in a film.
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  #40982  
Old 05-17-2018, 06:50 AM
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No doubt... some of the theories are on shaky ground... and some make a lot of sense.

But the real joy of the film is simply displaying so many oddities you may have missed. For instance, when the kid drives the bigwheel around the halls, never going into an elevator or stairwell, and yet it changes levels. And objects in the rooms, things that move or disappear. I missed so many things... things that affected my subconscious impression of a scene, but not my conscious understanding. Room 237 will certainly sharpen what you can observe in a film.
Yeah I understand what you mean, like when the guy at the hotel tells the story to Jack about the man who killed his wife and daughters 10 years ago and he specifically stated that the girls were 9 and 10 years old yet when Danny sees their "ghosts" they look like twins. Also the crime took place in 1970 (10 years ago to 1980) and yet the girls and their father were dressed like they lived in the 1920's. So were they really ghosts or were they just imagined by the story that Jack's family heard?

This movie really is awesome. :D

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  #40983  
Old 05-19-2018, 12:33 PM
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Yeah I understand what you mean, like when the guy at the hotel tells the story to Jack about the man who killed his wife and daughters 10 years ago and he specifically stated that the girls were 9 and 10 years old yet when Danny sees their "ghosts" they look like twins. Also the crime took place in 1970 (10 years ago to 1980) and yet the girls and their father were dressed like they lived in the 1920's. So were they really ghosts or were they just imagined by the story that Jack's family heard?

This movie really is awesome. :D
Looking back, I think I assumed the events of ten years ago were just one of victims bewitched by the 1920's 'ghosts'.

But here's a likely true explaintion from wiki:

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The two Gradys, and other doubles[edit]


Early in the film, Stuart Ullman tells Jack of a previous caretaker, Charles Grady, who, in 1970, succumbed to cabin fever, murdered his family and then killed himself. Later, Jack meets a ghostly butler named Grady. Jack says he knows about the murders, claiming to recognize Grady from pictures; however, the butler introduces himself as Delbert Grady.


Gordon Dahlquist of The Kubrick FAQ argues that the name change "deliberately mirrors Jack Torrance being both the husband of Wendy/father of Danny and the mysterious man in the July Fourth photo. It is to say he is two people: the man with choice in a perilous situation and the man who has 'always' been at the Overlook. It's a mistake to see the final photo as evidence that the events of the film are predetermined: Jack has any number of moments where he can act other than the way he does, and that his (poor) choices are fueled by weakness and fear perhaps merely speaks all the more to the questions about the personal and the political that The Shining brings up. In the same way Charles had a chance – once more, perhaps – to not take on Delbert's legacy, so Jack may have had a chance to escape his role as 'caretaker' to the interests of the powerful. It's the tragic course of this story that he chooses not to."[100] Dahlquist's argument is that Delbert Grady, the 1920s butler, and Charles Grady, the 1970s caretaker, rather than being either two different people or the same are two 'manifestations' of a similar entity; a part permanently at the hotel (Delbert) and the part which is given the choice of whether to join the legacy of the hotel's murderous past (Charles), just as the man in the photo is not exactly Jack Torrance, but nor is he someone entirely different. Jack in the photo has 'always' been at the Overlook; Jack the caretaker chooses to become part of the hotel. The film's assistant editor Gordon Stainforth has commented on this issue, attempting to steer a course between the continuity-error explanation on one side and the hidden-meaning explanation on the other; "I don't think we'll ever quite unravel this. Was his full name Charles Delbert Grady? Perhaps Charles was a sort of nickname? Perhaps Ullman got the name wrong? But I also think that Stanley did NOT want the whole story to fit together too neatly, so [it is] absolutely correct, I think, to say that 'the sum of what we learn refuses to add up neatly'."[100]
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  #40984  
Old 05-19-2018, 12:49 PM
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Looking back, I think I assumed the events of ten years ago were just one of victims bewitched by the 1920's 'ghosts'.

But here's a likely true explaintion from wiki:
Well one thing I always thought about was the woman in the bathtub. All psychoanalysis aside, if you want to go with the ghostly side of this movie it is a well-known fact that hotels are notorious suicide spots especially for prostitutes who often do their business in hotels. So was this dead woman in room 237 maybe the ghost of a prostitute who committed suicide in that bathtub? I think it's a very plausible theory and she may have even represented somebody from Jack's past back when he was the caretaker in the 1920's. What do you think?
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  #40985  
Old 05-19-2018, 08:01 PM
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Blood Beat, 1983, 7/10


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  #40986  
Old 05-22-2018, 05:44 PM
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Moon in Scorpio. 1987. 6.5/10

This was a cinematic mess, I fucking loved it.
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  #40987  
Old 05-22-2018, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by LuvablePsycho View Post
Well one thing I always thought about was the woman in the bathtub. All psychoanalysis aside, if you want to go with the ghostly side of this movie it is a well-known fact that hotels are notorious suicide spots especially for prostitutes who often do their business in hotels. So was this dead woman in room 237 maybe the ghost of a prostitute who committed suicide in that bathtub? I think it's a very plausible theory and she may have even represented somebody from Jack's past back when he was the caretaker in the 1920's. What do you think?
I really don't know anything about the bathtub woman. I think what struck me at the time was what it revealed about Jack and the Hotel... the hotel was supposed to be empty besides his family, and Jack was a married man, yet he just went with kissing the woman. He was revolted by the mirror reflection of decay/death, it was a foreshadowing, and a clue for Jack, but it wasn't enough to change his course with the Hotel's force. So I don't really see her as a prostitute, nor someone who committed suicide. Plus in the 'transformation' she's shown as very old (face), not just decayed, so I don't think that fits the story narrative.
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  #40988  
Old 05-23-2018, 07:42 AM
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I really don't know anything about the bathtub woman. I think what struck me at the time was what it revealed about Jack and the Hotel... the hotel was supposed to be empty besides his family, and Jack was a married man, yet he just went with kissing the woman. He was revolted by the mirror reflection of decay/death, it was a foreshadowing, and a clue for Jack, but it wasn't enough to change his course with the Hotel's force. So I don't really see her as a prostitute, nor someone who committed suicide. Plus in the 'transformation' she's shown as very old (face), not just decayed, so I don't think that fits the story narrative.
But I feel like she could have maybe committed suicide after she turned old, like maybe she felt that she was no longer desirable and she hated herself because of her profession? I mean in some horror movies ghosts can appear in a young form and old form. Plus Jack seemed to hold some deep resentment towards his wife so it's no surprise to me that he was thinking about cheating on her with some random beautiful naked lady. Maybe instead of a ghost she was some sort of sexual fantasy created in his mind and he turned her into an ugly old hag when he felt guilty for cheating on his wife?

I dunno, I'm not exactly an expert on things like that.
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  #40989  
Old 05-23-2018, 08:01 PM
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But I feel like she could have maybe committed suicide after she turned old, like maybe she felt that she was no longer desirable and she hated herself because of her profession? I mean in some horror movies ghosts can appear in a young form and old form. Plus Jack seemed to hold some deep resentment towards his wife so it's no surprise to me that he was thinking about cheating on her with some random beautiful naked lady. Maybe instead of a ghost she was some sort of sexual fantasy created in his mind and he turned her into an ugly old hag when he felt guilty for cheating on his wife?

I dunno, I'm not exactly an expert on things like that.
Sure! Could have been. It's a valid and interesting thought.

You asked me what I thought. Her being a prostitute or suicide victim didn't cross my mind. And I don't think Kubrick (director/screenwriter) intended for the audience to think about her as a specific person or victim (beyond being disregarded as a real person). I don't even think she was meant to be a prostitute... in this story. I just think she was an apparition of the evil force trying to enlist Jack, which would entail infidelity to his wife and family.
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  #40990  
Old 05-23-2018, 10:08 PM
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Your theory LP could indeed be valid, as it appears to have been purposefully left ambiguous to be open to interpretation. Check out this article about it...

In “The Shining,” who is the woman in room 237

The woman in 237 is one of the many elements of The Shining (1980) that are intentionally left ambiguous by Stanley Kubrick, but were explained in greater detail in the novelization.

The woman’s name is Mrs. Massey, and she was an older woman who came to The Overlook to have an affair with a younger fellow. One night, the younger man stole her Porsche and left. She was heartbroken and killed herself in the bathtub with sleeping pills and liquor.

As such, when Danny (Danny Lloyd) enters her room in the film version, he’s able to see her. When Jack (Jack Nicholson) enters the room, he sees a younger, beautiful woman instead of the deceased old woman. It’s not until he kisses her that she becomes the corpse. A popular theory is that she represents the overall seductive power of evil that inhabits the hotel, and is taking over Jack. Kissing her is his submission to the evil forces at work, and the turning point where he loses any goodness left in him.

“This is the strangest scene in the film. It has no reference to earlier events, and it seems completely unconnected with any of the characters. Yet it serves as an important link between all the characters in this psychic drama. It would be wrong to insist on a single interpretation of this scene, but in looking at it it exposes the heart of Kubrick's method in the film.” - Paul Mayersberg

Mayersberg goes on to note the ways in which the scene is a rewrite of Psycho’s bathtub scene, is a reversal of horror conventions, is overtly sexual in nature, and is ambiguous in nature.

“All these interpretations have a certain validity without getting near totally to describing the scene. It may come down to the simple fact that the scene in room 237 is no more nor less than a nightmare of its creator. But one of the extraordinary aspects of The Shining is the way the simplest events in bright light conjure dark fears, guesses and portents.”

SOURCE
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